Now that I’ve more or less caught up on the #romfail fallout, I have a quick question for those of you who followed it: Why wasn’t there a similar outcry when Jane tweeted about Ravenous Romance novels? I think it was called RR Theater, or something similar. I know there were those who didn’t like it but I don’t remember the insults being as vicious or as personal.
Could this have anything to do with Jane’s involvement with the new Borders True Romance Blog? Let’s face it: this is a really big deal for her and SB Sarah. It gives them legitimacy in the eyes of one of the major chains. Furthermore, Sue Grimshaw is a BOOK BUYER. How many times have we heard that the real power behind what gets published lies with the book buyers? Could authors be feeling threatened by this? Just a thought.
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No one was cying out against Ravenous Romance being the original romfail because of the history behind the publisher and the type of stories being published and the rumors surrounding the publisher. it seems both sides are very vocal about this issue. Some think romfail is very wrong and are very outspoken about it, while others support it with the same emotions.
Jane is very outspoken and this is no secret and she is very supportive of the romance genre and books in genre. You will have people being critical towards her as well as those who will follow her because they support her or want something from her.
You have touched upon something very interesting. And it always seems drama will die down and then it pops up out of the blue. Has rom fail become a bigger issue than it is?
With your posting on this subject you’ve at least triggered my need to investigate some more to form my own opinion Sarah
Where did this all begin? I didn’t hear about any of this.
I really should follow Twitter better. I totally missed out on the Romfail TwitterFlame, and now it’s probably too hectic to catch up. *sad sigh*. *g*
I’ve been quiet on the blogs about this, but you have a point. I find it all somewhat funny that people just won’t let it die.
I am shocked you missed it KarenS cuz I followed it through a post at giggles.
If nothing else it gave Ann Somerville a way to kissass back into being reviewed over at DA, maybe they have even lifted the ban on her.
Why have fallout now? She is doing bigger publishers vs epress? She picked Sarah McCarty who has (had?) a big fangrrl fanbase but I don’t even know if they have anything to do with it or twitter. I think it is more to do with the simple fact author never liked it.
Ray saying something gave them a ‘feeling it was safe’ to say something too. Hell even Ally Blue commented to one of the posts and she was the one people kept point to saying see it didn’t bother her. Or could be Ray is lying and he did it ‘for lurve of lori’ and the others just jumped at the chance.
@katiebabs @Arianna Skye
Romfail may very well have become a bigger issue than it is. I’m also aware that by posting a second item on it, I’m contributing to this. I considered adding the content of this post to the comment thread of my previous post, but decided to give it a post of its own because it’s essentially a new angle (at least for me).
@Leontine Yeah, it took some time to form mine. Twitter is not designed for latecomers!
@Keishon I think it was Saturday evening your time. At any rate, I saw the latter end of it on Sunday.
@Karen Scott Scrolling through what seems like 1000 past tweets is both time-consuming and headache-inducing. Next time, I think I’ll pass.
@sybil Leontine gave me the link to Mrs Giggles’ post. I hadn’t seen it, either. She now has a second one up. For those of you who are interested, here it is: http://mrsgiggles00.livejournal.com/
I think Ray may have been following someone who was partaking in romfail and asked what is was. And because he doesn’t know the whole story behind it, he came to conclusion about things.
@katiebabs That’s an excellent point. Twitter rather lends itself to misinterpretation and the dissemination of misinformation.
And that is the big thing authors need to keep in mind, not only the followers of followers but the public timeline that it all posts on. And the snap judgements people will make.
It is easy for you or me, readers don’t have to worry about how it looks we aren’t selling anything. But authors do have something to worry about and that is what shocked me about so many would be authors playing. Some honeslty don’t care, which is cool. Some for some odd reason just didn’t really think it through. I honestly think so people forget how ‘open’ twitter is…
Gosh, Sybil. What a mind you have. I didn’t even participate in romfail – never have, never want to – and somehow a review which was planned and written nearly a month ago, is a result of this non-participation?
My only contribution to this was curiosity – and a lot of anger – as to where a certain male chauvinist author had suddenly sprung from. A cursory search discovered a connection between him and the owner of the press from where most of the criticism was emanating. To me, that might have been the reason for his interest. As for his loathsome attitude to women, I assume that’s all his own work.
You’re not insulting me – you’re insulting Sarah Frantz’s integrity and fuck it, you owe her an apology. What a revolting thing to do to someone, a reputable academic and an honest reviewer. Is there no one you loons won’t smear in your attempts to bring me down?
WTF, Sybil? Ann asked me if I wanted to review Jerna months ago, before she was banned from DA. When she was, I asked Jane if it was still okay to review it and she had no problem with it, because any issues with Ann aside, DA is and always has been about the books, no matter anything else. Ann sent me Jerna, I read it, loved it, reviewed it, and as far as I know, Ann is still banned from DA. The point is the book. Jerna is a damn good book.
My review of Jerna, which I’ve been trying to write (both time and how do I review it have been wanting) for weeks, has nothing to do with #romfail or Ann’s response to it, which I haven’t even read. Get over yourself, please.
TBH, the thought of Ann kissing ass is laughable, if nothing else. I don’t think she has it in her. She wouldn’t be the Ann we all love and love to hate if she did.
Guess your timing just sucked. Don’t know you or care to bring you down. Good luck on getting that ban lifted and keeping it that way.
Feel free to email me if you want to vent more but really doubt sarah cares to hear it.
@Sarah Frantz
Uh huh, as I just said guess the ‘timing’ just sucked. “Get over myself?” That isn’t likely to happen but is neither here nor there, or have anything to do with romfail or the comment.
I wasn’t calling into question if it was an honest review, I question the timing of the post. Of course since you were working on this for sometime that does explain how Ann jumped into the romfail mix. I guess. ::shrug::. Why are you being so defensive?
@sybil: Um, I imagine Ann jumped into the #romfail mix b/c that’s just what Ann DOES. Which means I guess you really don’t know (of) her, because if you did, you’d know she’s almost pathalogically incapable of stopping herself from jumping into stuff like this.
I don’t think I’m being defensive–or at least, I’m not trying to be (does one ever try to be defensive, I wonder?). “Timing” just happened. I’ve been very very busy, now I’m a little less busy, so I had time to post two or three reviews, and that’s the one Jane chose to release first. I’ve been too busy to get involved in the #romfail discussions–I only vaguely know who what and why, and that because I’ve seen it all before. Timing is pure coincidence, I don’t think Ann is “trying” to get the ban lifted, and I don’t think Jane cares one way or another. It’s not like there aren’t dozens of #romfail posts going up all over the place, from everyone who might have an opinion about it.
If I DO sound defensive, it’s because I don’t want anyone thinking that DA grades and/or reviews (good or bad) can be bought with a little ass kissing–not that Ann did. I would have thought DA had a better reputation than that.
@sybil
It may come as a surprise to you and those who make so much of this issue, but I really have no interest in participating at DA. Any interesting discussions I can read anyway, and are almost initiated by Robin or Sarah. I can talk to them without DA, and prefer to do so. I don’t respect Jane for various things she’s said and done (unrelated to me) and she’s no more welcome at my blogs than I am at hers. Same is true for various individuals who are making merry over this BS. I stick to my group of friends, people I like and trust.
I really have no interest in talking to you in email. You are so very quick to make assumptions about me, my writing, and my motivations without the slightest evidence, and there are just too many people like you around for me to want to interact with another specimen, even for the ‘pleasure’ of sucking up to a reviewer.
Just for the record though, the entire ‘conspiracy’ being cooked up at Giggle’s blog is apparently based on this single tweet:
http://twitter.com/logophilos/status/3491280574
A lot of arse-kissing going on there, right?
@Sarah Frantz
8coughbacklashcough*
Look on the bright side; there are obviously a lot of people reading DA.
@Robin: Heh!
Someone posted an explanation as to how the whole thing got off and running over at Mrs. Giggles today.
Trying to swing this conversation back on track….sort of….
I didn’t like romfail when it was RRTheater either. I just don’t see the point. Read a book you know you’re going to hate and snark about it? I just don’t get it. But then, I think life is too damn short (and my TBR too damn huge) to waste time on shit. That’s me though. I’m not saying I don’t believe in critical reviews – I do. But for me it’s about reading something with an open mind. If you know it’s going to suck donkey balls, and you know you’re going to hate it – why read it to begin with?
That being said, I’ve never been critical about romfail because….why? I don’t like it. I don’t see the point of it. So frickin’ what? You know what I do? I don’t follow it. It’s that simple. Just as if I don’t like a TV show, I change the channel. Or I don’t read every article in a magazine or newspaper. *Gasp* There are even some blogs I don’t follow. Just because it EXISTS, doesn’t mean anyone is forcing you to read it. It’s called free will. We have it. We should exercise it. ‘Tis good for the soul.
Good commentary per usual Sarah.
I have only one reaction to Sarah’s post, and that is that I would not want to have Sue Grimshaw’s job. It sounds dreamy, reading romances and getting paid for it, but I suspect it would end the way high school jobs in pizzerias end: you never want to eat pizza again. And I like pizza. Similarly, I like romances. Or, to be realistic, I like good romances. Reading a bad romance for any reason falls into the “life’s too short” category for me.
Oh, and one other thing. I’m a lawyer, and as such, I found the following story fascinating on a number of levels:
http://ethicist.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/is-it-ok-to-blog-about-this-woman-anonymously/
Basically, it’s either going to be a precedent for companies like Google to identify people who use their service to commit (alleged) torts of slander, defamation, false light, etc. – OR – it will result in a successful lawsuit against Google for violating the blogger’s identity, which means if I were Google’s lawyer, I’d be thinking of ways to ensure that no one posts anonymously on Google again. Either way, it’s a harbinger of things to come.
Wendy, if I could have been arsed writing a blog about this, my point of view would have been similar to yours.
My main points would have been as follows:
1. I wasn’t particularly interested in #Romfail so I didn’t follow it.
2. Who is Ray Garton?
3. All books are fair game, so if you can’t handle that fact, don’t publish the damn thing
4. Authors can laugh and snigger, and post snarky comments about other author’s books, but tis a dangerous road to take, unless they have thick skin about their own work.
5. Being a man, Ray Garton must be sexually frustrated, and so should be forgiven for being so shrill and testosterone-laden.
6. What would Nora do?
@Gia Thanks, Gia. I saw that. She now has a couple of posts up relating to romfail.
@Wendy My reaction is very similar to yours. I don’t really see the point of romfail, but if people like it, why not? What I found most amusing about romfail was the extreme reaction from many of its detractors. It was that all too typical scenario where the critics behave far worse than those they’re criticizing. (Well, at least some of them did.)
@Magdalen Yeah, I read about that. I must say I have mixed feelings about online anonymity but that’s probably a topic for another post.
@Karen Scott Love your point no. 6!
I really have no interest in talking to you in email. You are so very quick to make assumptions about me, my writing, and my motivations without the slightest evidence
Kinda like insinuating Lori Perkins sicced Garton on #romfail on the flimsy evidence that he was her client for a while, back in the ’80s? Considering first mention I saw of the DA/Jerna/Ann Somerville conspiracy theory was in a Mrs. Giggles post mocking the Lori Perkins/Ravenous/Ray Garton conspiracy theory as ridiculous, I–and I hope anyone intelligent enough to understand the concept of irony–just laughed and figured it was bullshit anyway.
As for #romfail, I hate the whole idea of it. Hated it when it was the DA/SB liveblogging event, hated it when it was #RRtheater, and it hasn’t won me over in this incarnation. Too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
I’d assume that there were plenty of people out there like me, who just didn’t want to start anything. I’ve ignited enough bags of poop on the internet to know I don’t like playing with lighters and dog doo. Once someone else starts the fire, though, we come out of the woodwork to have our say. Kind of sad it took this long…
“Kinda like insinuating Lori Perkins sicced Garton on #romfail on the flimsy evidence that he was her client for a while, back in the ’80s”
And who did that, Kirsten? Because when a cursory search revealed Garton had been Perkins’ client, I assumed that was where he had heard about #romfail – and nothing more. You will note that all I tweeted was the fact of the former connection – and nothing more. After all A Big Important Male Genre Writer doesn’t involve himself in wimmins’ work unless he’s got some personal interest or connection – we seen this before. I wasn’t aware that trying to work out who knows who in writing was an evil deed.
“I hope anyone intelligent enough to understand the concept of irony”
Well then Sybil must be one of the irony-deficient. Along with Keta Diablo, Mr Garton, and you.
“Once someone else starts the fire, though, we come out of the woodwork to have our say.”
Yes, you do. Like woodlice and cockroaches. It’s quite, quite fascinating in an anthropological way – while remaining unedifying, amoral, and unimproving.
I look forward to all the conspiracy theories that you and your charming friends will cook up when your latest Samhain book is reviewed on UP. Ooh, I can hardly wait. Whatever score it gets, I’m sure you will tell everyone it’s the result of either vendetta or arsekissing.
@Sarah
Actually meant the explanation in the comments and not the post itself lol sorry I should have been more clear – right before Victoria Dahl’s comments. Says basically that #romfail came up when some of his followers were complaining about it and others were taking part in it.
@Ann Somerville
Ann, would you seriously listen to yourself? Do you honestly think that a horror author and his former agent would be sitting around discussing #romfail over coffee one afternoon?
Yes, you do. Like woodlice and cockroaches. It’s quite, quite fascinating in an anthropological way – while remaining unedifying, amoral, and unimproving.
Ack! Ann S just compared me to woodlice and cockroaches! Ad hominem attacks! Ad hominem attacks! Everyone run for the hills!
But seriously, my latest is up for review at UP? Ohhhh, right. It’s got the m/m in it. Hmmm, this is a bit uncomfortable, isn’t it? Perhaps I’ll have to stick to the girl-on-girl from now on…
Now I must respond since for whatever reason my name is being bandied about by peeps I don’t know.
The defintion of “bandy” – To toss words back and forth casually, often without caring whether they are true or what effect they may have.
For the record I must clarify. I don’t know Ann S. Have never met her in person, and most certainly would never follow her on Twitter (rest easy Ann, you don’t have to block me or lose one moment’s sleep over this).
I have never followed DA or romfail. And would not.
Ray Garton was an unfamiliar name to me until two days ago (AFTER his post about romfail — key word here “AFTER”) although I must say I’ve enjoyed his acquaintance immensely since.
I seriously doubt Lori Perkins and Ray Garton are engaged in a clandestine conspiracy about romfail. Ms. Perkins couldn’t care less about romfail. This is paranoia speaking.
Truth: I did post comments on RTB BECAUSE like many, I had grown sick and tired of a pack of wolves destroying their “supposed” fellow authors. Until that time, I had not heard of RR Theatre night and if I had, would not have engaged. For jumping into the fray, Land of Falling Stars was dutifully excoriated on a public forum, aka RR theatre night the FOLLOWING Friday night. Can we say “retribution”?
I lived through it just fine and by all accounts of many who lurked on the sidelines the participants did more damage to themselves than they ever could to Land of Falling Stars.
One thing I have learned, as I’m sure most of you have on this forum, romfail lives by one creed only . . . “Squash the rebellion at all costs.” Can we say revenge?
Ann, whoever you are, please do not post my name on a public forum when you know nothing about me. This is really a very low-handed tactic from someone who is possessed of a delusional mind.
Let me state publicly just so we’re clear — I am against cyber-bullying, against humiliating human beings on a public or private forum for the sake of others’ enjoyment. I intensely dislike the entire concept of romfail, RR Theatre and any such forum. I do not personally dislike or loathe the people who participate because I don’t know them and could never make that judgment based solely on this misguided venture.
To state publicly you dislike people or to demonstrate hostility on any public forum in the publishing industry is nothing short of suicide. To stick up for yourself when you are being attacked from all sides is another matter.
You, however, Ann, author or not, feel compelled to attack your fellow man on a level that resembles lunacy if they don’t agree with you. There is no need for this. Nor is there a need for you to pull names out of the air and drag them into a melee just . . . just because you think you can and you’ve apparently gotten away with it for years.
State your side, act courteous and respect others, and all should be well.
Oh, and yes, leave my name out of your rants and posts.
Surely you must have better things to do in your life? One can only hope. If not, I can’t help but wonder how in the world you sleep at night.
Keta Diablo
No one wants to piss of the mean girls (DA, SB and OTHERS) #rrtheatre and #romfail are disgusting. One author had her book pulled from the publisher’s website because of Jane’s nastiness. Then has the nerve to say “We Won”. She won? Are you kidding?
They are nasty with snark and personal attacks. I wouldn’t want my fan base to built on that, but hey it that’s what it takes. Then let them have at it.
SB outed Cassie Edwards plagiarism. Yay for them. UNTIL they started the personal attacks. I wanted to hurl at some of their posts. What Cassie did was wrong, but personally SB personal attacks dulled the message even more. But hey the have a bestselling book now that “everyone” in the Romance industry wants to read. So we have to play nice because they are influential.
From what I was told LOTS of NY publishers were courting Jane at RT. WHY Please GOD tell me why?
Guess what… even EDITORS will tell their authors (on publisher loops) to shut up when they criticize DA and SB. WTF?
I’m not jealous that they are on the Borders blog. I am horrified. Just another reason to read eBooks. Boycott Borders till they can see who they are aligning themselves with.
I am anonymous for a reason. I work in the romance publishing industry. I don’t want them targeting me. I have a family to support with my income.
@anon
I’m responding to your comment about one author whose book was pulled from her publisher’s site, because I’m a co-reviewer of said book. This is a few things I want to say:
- Readers already complained about this author’s book to the publisher and apparently the publisher ignored their complaints, so the book was mentioned to us.
- I’m sorry, but the book is certainly unfit for publication. I’m still shocked, to be honest. It STILL doesn’t mean the author is that crap because she isn’t. She has an awesome imagination, for instance.
She just needs more time and effort in polishing her writing and storytelling skills, which can be done. Especially if with guidance from skilled editors and mentor authors.
But apparently she did have constructive feedback from her CPs and authors’ mailing list for her book, and she apparently chose to ignore their advice.
I can’t remember where I said this: if I read a better work from said author, I would certainly review it with a better grade because I really do want her career to take off. We, readers and reviewers, WANT to fall in love with whatever authors give us. I’m 101% certain Jane feels that way about all books as well. I’d not be surprised if Candy, Sarah and the others feel the same, too. I bet that all readers do as well.
With that in mind, I prefer to spend money on books by authors who evidently spent time and effort polishing their skills, because they deserve attention more than those who won’t listen or make an effort.
Either way, best of luck to the author.
- if you read the “review”, you could see that we both said the editor and the publisher did a huge disservice to the author, by publishing her book before it was even ready for publication.
When I co-wrote the review, I assumed her editor was either inexperienced (not wanting to hurt the author’s feelings, for instance) or lazy. I really had no idea her book didn’t even have any input by her editor.
It apparently went straight from submission pile to publication.
It’s crazy. Even Nora Roberts have had editorial input for her books, so why couldn’t this author and other authors have that? She deserves that much respect at least, surely?
- I honestly didn’t expect the publisher to pull the book. (I’m fairly certain Jane didn’t either.) To be honest, I was annoyed with the publisher because if they saw fit to publish her book, they should at least stand by their judgement. Instead they yanked the book at author’s expense (and I found out later, without her knowledge).
I put the blame of this mess at the publisher’s feet. Not at the author’s feet. And definitely not at Jane’s feet (or due to, as you put it, Jane’s nastiness).
I say that because THE PUBLISHER chose to publish the book without editorial input and before it was even ready for publication; THE PUBLISHER chose to pull the book from the site, and THE PUBLISHER chose to structure their editorial dept the way it is (or hopefully, was).
If the publisher felt the book was ready for publication, they should be able to withstand negative responses from readers and some reviewers (including me), but no. They pulled the book.
- Where does Jane say “we won”? It doesn’t sound like her. It’s certainly not her style if the comment was about the author. Knowing Jane, she’s likely to have an issue with publishers who have a low regard for its authors and readers. It’s the issue I share with as well.
Authors AND readers deserve the best from publishers and when publishers don’t deliver, we should say something, surely?
Amen, Maili! This is actually one of the books I’ve purchased. When I later found that the publisher had pulled the author’s work off the site, I cringed. How horrible to do that (And even worse that she wasn’t even notified). The blame with that book totally falls on them and not the author. I hope that, after some further editing and polishing, the publisher will do the right thing and re-release her book. Heck, I’d even buy the new version again. As Maili said, the author does indeed have incredible imagination.
I stopped reading SB when every other post of theirs started being about their book.
Truthfully, I hadn’t been impressed with them for a while, not the least of the reasons for that is because they call romance books “trashy” while claiming to love them – and then taking every opportunity to snark about them. Too many mixed messages for me.
Write, review or edit. Love books or don’t. Just be honest about your goals.
Where’s the equivalent #romsuccess ???