Usually when I write a blog post, I have a firm idea of what it is I want to say, and where I’m going with my argument. Not this time! This post represents my evolving thoughts on #romfail and the ideas it gave me regarding blogs, Twitter and online etiquette. It’s bound to be disjointed and I welcome your thoughts on the ideas I present.
Due to the time difference, I only saw some of the tweets in the Twitter #romfail kerfuffle. From what I can gather, Jane of Dear Author tweeted a snarky review of one of Sarah McCarty’s books. Some thought it hilarious. Others took umbrage. Many chimed in.
Whether or not you like snarky reviews – or think Jane went too far with this one – I know I’ve read far worse at Dear Author, Mrs Giggles, Karen Knows Best, and a slew of other review blogs. So was the problem the venue? Do different social ‘rules’ apply on Twitter than on an individual’s blog? Should they?
And another question: Why is it that a woman who writes a snarky review is immediately labeled a bitch?
I’ll take the Twitter vs Blog argument first.
If we see a blog as a person’s own territory, they’re entitled to say whatever they want there. Obviously, common sense should prevail – unless the blogger wishes to be sued and/or alienate their entire readership. Like Twitter, a blog is in the public domain. However, the blog owner retains power over all content. They choose what material to include in their posts. If they wish, they can moderate visitors’ comments. (Apart from spam, I don’t moderate comments on my blog.) In other words, the blog owner hosts the discussion in their online home, and could potentially end it at any point by closing the comment thread.
Twitter is another story entirely. To state the obvious: Twitter is a social networking site. Tweeting is akin to having a conversation with friends, with two major differences: eavesdropping is part of the deal, and butting in/interrupting is welcome. The fact remains that anyone can read your tweets (unless you have your updates set to private, which rather defeats the purpose, or block specific individuals). No one holds the balance of power in this equation, and all can be considered equal. If Twitter is deemed public territory, should different rules of etiquette apply than for blogs?
Rightly or wrongly, I’m more comfortable reading snarky reviews on blogs than on Twitter. Somehow I feel bad for the authors when the discussion takes place on a social networking site rather than on a privately hosted blog which specifically states its purpose is to review books. Am I alone in this opinion? As I fully support the right to free speech, I’m conflicted about this. I can’t pinpoint exactly why I feel this way, hence the reflective post. I’m relatively new to Twitter and it could be that I’ll see this differently in another year or so.
The other thing which occurred to me in the aftermath of #romfail was the tone of reviews and the reviewer’s gender. I get the impression that women are ‘permitted’ to write something critical as long as it is reasoned, reasonable and polite. Insert sarcasm, and we’re immediately classified as bitches. Men who write sarcastic critiques are considered witty. Why the double standard? Are women not allowed to have strong opinions, or voice them with humour?
I think it harps back to the view of women as nurturers. We’re conditioned to be nice and treat others with respect. If we’re strident in our opinions, it’s perceived as brash and somehow unnatural. Inject humour, and we’re being catty.
The online community is an evolving entity with few set rules. While there are many clear ‘wrongs’, I don’t think we’ve established a proper code of online etiquette, or whether such a code would have different ‘rules’ according to the venue.
What do you think? Do you react differently to snark on Twitter than on a blog, or is this my own idiosyncrasy? Do you think there are (or should be) different ‘rules’ of behaviour on various online venues? Why are women judged more harshly when we criticize something?
{ 27 comments }
It’s an interesting question.
I don’t twitter–I don’t need yet another time suck and I cannot ever confine myself to 140 characters (verbose, that’s me)–but I went over and checked the past couple of days of #romfail
Beyond the confusing bit (everyone talking at once, etc.) what strikes me is that the lack of context in these conversations makes those comments seem harsher than they would be within context.
That same lack of context also makes the quoted (or rather, paraphrased) bits seem worse than they would to someone reading the full scene.
I believe in free speech, so I don’t see why people shouldn’t say whatever they want, however they want and wherever they want to say it–as long as they are prepared for the consequences. Often the consequences are going to be that someone takes exception and calls on “a mean bitch”; other times it’s just the opposite (such as the recent SBTB & CS dust-up).
Now the real question is why women are judged more harshly–often by other women.
There are, I think, many factors acting jointly there, but one of them is that it wasn’t long ago that women weren’t expected (let alone allowed) to have public opinions on anything. We couldn’t vote (and still can’t in many places–check out the news on the Afghan elections, for example). We couldn’t own property or businesses.
And this went on for centuries, at least in Western civilizations, so it’s ingrained in the majority of the population to see a self-assertive woman as a threat to the “traditional” values.
*blink*
Gee, did I mention my verbosity?
(and there’s more but I’ll stop here, sorry)
I completely missed that kerfuffle. All I can say is, if you you don’t want your work ripped to pieces, write a better book. Just because finally readers can whinge back and, as a group, express their dissatisfaction at having spent money on crap (or brilliance interspersed with crap, because let’s face it, books like Passion are beloved as much as they’re banged on walls) doesn’t mean that criticism is getting any more virulent. It’s just becoming more public.
One difference between blogs and Twitter is that blogs have some context. If you read a review on a blog, you can read other content on the same blog to gauge the tone and tastes of the blogger. On Twitter, it’s time-consuming, and sometimes impossible, to get a feel for a person’s intent. So #romfail comes across to some as harassment and attack, whereas people who’ve been following it for a while know that it’s a bit of sarcasm and humour, which sometimes points back at readers, too.
And finally, in many cases people just can’t appreciate the concept of taking the piss out of something.
I am with Azteclady on this one, if you say something for the public to read and stand by it, beware the consequences. I don’t really think it comes down to gender with romfail. If a man did the same thing I think the opinion for some would be the same.
If you are not a fan of romfail, don’t be involved and don’t read it. Being vocal about it on twitter to those who enjoy it won’t do anything for your cause. Just as with the television shows or books you can read, you can change to another channel or don’t pick up that book. The same goes for romfail. Again, it is discussing the work, not the person who wrote it. And if you read the lines quoted from the book you may not be surprised why they are being picked for romfail.
Great post discussion as always Sarah.
I just want to point out that #romfail is not a review situation at all. It’s an in the moment, public recitation and Greek chorus-like reaction, fueled by wine and other Friday night libations. I see it as a live riff, and most of the comments are riffs off of other comments, not the book.
I get that people don’t like it, that they think it’s horrible, whatever. I suspect that some don’t understand that most of the books at issue are liked or even well-loved by any number of participants. Even as the, uh, extremity of some of the language and editing problems are scrutinized in the public forum.
And I think that azteclady is correct that it may seem harsher out of context. Think about how often you go to a new domain at which you are not a regular and see something that’s going on in much harsher light than those who know the context and their own intentions. So I understand the discomfort.
However, one thing I have not seen in #romfail(and I have not seen every comment made on every book, so there might be a few I haven’t seen) is animosity toward the author or, in fact, any personal impugning of the author. Unlike some of the #romfail haters. Which brings up an interesting issue, IMO, around how certain norms are established and enforced sometimes by those who don’t even follow them (some who seem to be setting out a welcome mat for that proverbial lightning).
I do wonder if there’s a pattern to how these norms of “professionalism” and “credentials” and the like are asserted in such punitive ways. Like what’s the nature of the transgression and why is it responded to so violently, especially in a context where even the enforcers cannot obey the very laws they’re trying to impose? If a bunch of guys, for example, set up a mst3K type of thing, for example, what would be the reaction? And what about broad participation in forums like Fandom Wank? There seem to be some significant inconsistencies IMO that it might be interesting to tease out.
I missed it too but from what I just read I think it is more to do with authors and would be authors playing along. I would agree that is stupid.
Is it right – no. Authors should be able to say whatev they want with their reader hat on but the game isn’t played that way. And with it getting harder to be published, why do that?
Most amusing is how the unpublished ones are saying they would be FINE if it was them. Some might but one was just yesterday or the day before complaining her contest entries (all three) came back and they hated her book because ‘they had chips’ (I assume on their shoulder, she got a touch miffed when I ?? vs going there there u r right!) and since they weren’t agents their view didn’t matter. I would link but she has since deleted the twitters and never answered my question as to why it mattered they weren’t agents. Three different people, ‘hating on it’ had to have agendas or ‘chips’ but she could make it though a romfail. ::blink::
As for the whole thing in general, or the ‘jane’s agenda’ stuff, I think as I said two weeks ago that goes to naming the hashtag really badly. And the seemingly picking only books she thought would suck to roast, the OMFG they are meangrrls shit was bound to start happening, which is annoying but nothing new. Who knows that could have been the point, it has been three months or so since this has been hit on. So I don’t, again, understand why people see put out when the obvious happens.
I agree with giggles on the if you dish it, be prepared to take it. But I always have where as I was once told that oh no only authors should have to have thick skin not reviewers. No, you don’t have a book to be judged on but you do a site and or your opinion and if you put it out there it can be fair game. Of course, for an author, pissing off your reader base is never a good thing. Whole different kind of circle jerk…
I must admit while missing out on most of it due to time differences, I have been sucked into the fallout. I can’t help it, it fascinates me.
Do you react differently to snark on Twitter than on a blog, or is this my own idiosyncrasy?
Yes, I do react differently, but different again to you, I don’t see twitter as a proper review in the sense that I would view it on a blog. I view it as an immediate reaction, of a book, movie or new song, not a full analysis of the text. Therefore I have different standards, I do not expect fair, I expect honesty and in this case entertainment.
Why are women judged more harshly when we criticize something?
I think this is the thing that is niggling at me with this kerfuffle. Some of the reactions I have read seem to be the same “If you have nothing nice to say, don’t say it” thing that even in the short time I have been blog hopping keeps coming up. I really do not understand this and it makes me quite a bit uncomfortable. I do not really see this attitude in male dominated review areas, that seem to get more authority in some ways.
What do I think in general?
As a reader, I have read a large number of the romfail books, still own the enjoyed Sarah McCarty and am contemplating getting Passions.
Look I have no problem with people not liking it and expressing their opinions. Though must admit the way some of the opinions are expressed and views, and that some are using it as a platform to hate on DA, trip me up a little bit, but a bit of that is on both sides of the fence, and have noticed it with a lot of issues to hit romanceland.
To round up my rambling a bit, basically my opinion is that a book is public property, like movies, TV shows, newspaper articles and scarily in this day and age celebrities, therefore open for snark by the consumers.
In an ideal world this would include authors, but probably think in the current very public eye, they would do better to not participate or at least under a diff ID.
Thank you all for your insightful comments!
@azteclady @Kat
You both hit on the point of context, or lack thereof, on Twitter. Due to the ‘live’ nature of tweeting, it’s extremely difficult to keep abreast of who said what to whom, especially if you come to the debate late. I love the immediacy of Twitter, but it has its drawbacks. Reading tweets out of context can easily foster erroneous assumptions. Blog posts and accompanying comments threads are easier to consult at a later date.
@katiebabs Regarding gender and romfail: you might be correct that it’s irrelevant in this case. However, seeing snark in a wider context, I’m convinced women are judged more harshly than men when they do it – especially by other women.
Thank you, Katiebabs! I’ve been saying this for years. If you don’t like a comment thread, or the way an argument is developing, you can always exercise your right NOT TO READ!
@Robin If I understand you correctly, you’re saying the romfail haters behaved far worse than the romfail participants, thus rendering themselves hypocrites? If I get a chance today, I’ll try to scroll through all the #romfail tweets and see what was said to whom. I wish Twitter had a user-friendly archival system for retrieving past tweets!
@sybil It must be hard for authors to participate in online discussions without feeling they have to monitor their every word for fear of upsetting fellow authors and editors. I don’t think it should be the case, but I agree with you that it makes good business sense not to diss other authors publicly. It might curtail free speech, but honesty is not always the best policy if you want to sell yourself and your books.
@Edie My use of the word ‘review’ when referring to romfail was probably misleading. Your definition of it as an immediate reaction to a book, rather than a considered review, is more accurate.
I missed something, is this a man vs woman thing because Ray happens to be male? Or did he say something that points to this being a sexist thing? Or was that just a general question?
Use of the word ‘review’ is misleading but all those public tweets that show up on the public timeline – the drive by readers and what not – how many see it as a ‘review’ and if not just a ‘roast’.
The thing for me is if you don’t expect people to talk about your book, review it, make fun of it, even call your baby ugly – DON’T PUBLISH IT.
I don’t mind author reviews, hell we have some up. But ‘I’ would ask ‘myself’, if I was a writer trying to sell my book, self would ‘I’ publish a scathing, unbalanced review of another author in my genre. If I could answer yes, I would go on with mybadself. Do keep in mind I am all for bad reviews and think the whining is stupid.
The thing is I don’t have to worry about it, I am just a reader, not a writer. It is verra possible Ray was a minon of the debil and had an agenda but the ‘should authors do bad reviews or not’ is an old question – one I have always thought was bullshit and of course they should be able too (at the same time I pay no attention to them most times). Do the readers gained make it worth playing? And if you haven’t sold the book yet, are you screwing yourself, because publishers, editors, agents, and publicists are seeing and hearing about it?
@sybil I didn’t read all of Ray Garton’s tweets and I got a headache trying to find and go through all the romfail tweets. Twitter is not designed for easy access to old tweets! So, no, I’m not accusing Ray of sexism until or unless I manage to get through all of what he and his pals had to say and can make an informed judgement.
In my post, I was referring to snark in general. I think women are just as quick – if not quicker – to call another woman a bitch for a snarky comment as men are.
Off topic nitpick: negative review =/= bad review. Pretty please?
@Sarah
oh I didn’t think you were, was wondering where it came from cuz I saw a few comments about it but I think I got it now… was the ‘pms’ stuff
And @azteclady I am sorry I am running slow… huh?what? Oh are you meaning a negative review doesn’t equal a bad review? I would say no reviews are really ‘negative’ just opinion. But for the ‘should authors review’ they get butthurt over ‘negative’ reviews which seems they do equal to ‘bad’ reviews. Or do you mean something different? I suppose I should have put ‘bad’ in quotes up there but it all comes silly at this point.
Of course remember I am one who thinks a C grade is still a good grade so what do I know.
sybil, it’s just a pet peeve of mine.
A review can be negative as all get out (meaning, giving the story say 2 out of 10) and yet be a GOOD review because it fulfills the needs of a reader looking for information on the book–it tells what worked or didn’t work for the reviewer, etc.
A bad review can say, “this is the most wonderful book ever written, go buy it now!” and it’s still a sucky review.
I have no problem with #romfail. I have no problem with critics or rejections–as anyone who knows me also knows I’ve had a lot of them. What I do have an issue with are personal attacks and when someone says I hope these women don’t have children.
@azteclady
I see, I never really thought about sadly I can’t edit it. I do agree with what you. LOL interesting pet peeve *g* shall try and remember it
I don’t “do” twitter — like azteclady, I can’t be limited to 140 characters! — but here’s my best guess at the difference. Tweets come to the readers, whereas readers of blogs have to go to the blog. So it’s the difference between making a statement in public with the intent that everyone (who’s paying attention, that is) should hear you, and making a statement in your own home at a party to which you’ve invited everyone. That seems to come close to Sarah’s analysis.
I have a friend whose standard is not to saying anything to anyone about a third person that he wouldn’t say to the third person face to face. Would Jane have tweeted whatever she did if she knew it was going to McCarty directly? Maybe so. Some people are just balls-out and really don’t care who hears.
But here’s the thing about any flak she took for the review she wrote — it’s a downside of the Internet that any cranky-pants with a keyboard can comment pretty much at will. So do I think women being sarcastic are bitches? No, but I have known people (men & women) who can be very funny in a distinctly ungenerous way. You laugh, but then you grimace… I’ve also known people who can go from zero to high dudgeon in no time at all. So was Jane witchy, or was she cast in that light by someone having a “bad day”? And the crazy thing is that more likely than not none of this had anything to do with McCarty.
Incidentally, I agree on the distinction of a bad vs. negative review. Sarcasm can be great, and it can be informative, and it can be bitchy and it can be nasty. Kind of chameleon-like in that regard.
What I’m saying is that if an author insists that authors who #romfail are wrong and are mocking other authors, and then that author mocks the authors who #romfail, then yes, I think that’s hypocritical. Just like I think it’s hypocritical to mean on those who #romfail for being mean.
But I also wonder if some of the brouhaha (which at this point seems mostly to be generated by those who claim that they’ve flustered the #romfail participants) is backlash against DA. Just like I wondered if some of the incest ad criticism was backlash against SBTB. I mean, Karen Ranney wrote an entire blog post slamming #romfail a) without having ever heard of it, b) without having read any of the comments, and c) stating as fact that Jane (without naming her, of course) does not like erotic Romance (a claim that would not withstand the most cursory examination of DA). It was downright weird the way she was so unselfconscious about just putting out there in an authoritative way what looked like it had been passed on to her by someone else. And, you know, for people who hate DA, it’s not like a rebuttal of the various assertions is going to convince them. Just like those who hate #romfail are probably not going to be convinced otherwise by learning that it can generate book sales, etc. It all just is what it is, so to speak. Hopefully the authors who #romfail will not automatically believe the bludgeoning assertions that they will never sell another book ever again, since actual editors have weighed in that such a thing makes not one iota of difference if a book is worth pubbing.
As for the gender issue, I have no idea if someone who makes comments about women being premenstrual, etc. is sexist, but I think it’s quite arguable that the comments are. And I do think it’s sort of interesting that despite the fact that men participate in #romfail, it’s been feminized and associated with certain less than flattering female stereotypes. If this were a bunch of guys who did a live reading session of the latest American Idol episode or a SF/F novel, would the reaction be the same? Eh, I doubt it.
@Magdalen
The thing about Twitter, though, is that you have to intentionally “follow” people in order to receive their tweets. So if you follow them, you’re inviting their tweets. In fact, you only receive general tweets, or those tweets addressed to you and/or to other people you follow.
I’m a reader that finds romfail amusing. I only follow it when the book is interesting enough to hold my attention. It has to be something that I might read on my own. I usually only see the main thread and a few of the comments from people I follow that are also romfail followers. I don’t follow the romfail hashtag, so I don’t see all the comments, only what I personally read in my timeline. I don’t find romfail “mean-spirited” at all and look upon it as a sort of roast.
As for the mess that is going on in Twitter, both sides made some interesting and valid points, and it was thought-provoking to hear the views of some of the people that didn’t think romfail was a good idea and why.
However, a few people just made my blood boil in how they made those points. RG is one of them, He made me mad early on and pretty much everything he has said since then on the subject has not made it better. Without really understanding everything about romfail (not a book “review”, not envious authors, but mostly readers, etc.), he rejected it and then started attacking and belittling the PEOPLE involved. He later said he was only attacking their actions, but it certainly didn’t sound that way to me. I personally was offended, not for my actions (I have never even made a romfail post on Twitter) but because I was attacked for who I am, simply because I happen to enjoy it.
(forgot links)
http://twitter.com/RayGarton/status/3465935196
http://twitter.com/RayGarton/status/3465785084
http://nlberger13.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-i-spend-most-friday-nights.html?showComment=1250929438606#c434055089641076848
Hmmm, I totally missed that fallout. Darn it! But personally, I think every book on romfail fully deserves the snarking it receives. I don’t think of romfail as a review, more of a group LOL session. Pretty much everyone who participates in romfail reads and enjoys romances, even when they’re super-bad like the romfail books are. So just because people are snarking your book doesn’t mean they aren’t enjoying it.
I do feel kinda bad for the authors who might have their book snarked on romfail, but really, they could stand to read some of the criticism Jane throws out there. Consistency and grammar issues are a big deal, you know? And if they can’t deal with it, hey–they don’t have to read it. Just like we don’t have to read their books.
@Elyssa Papa I missed the part where someone said they hoped these women don’t have children. Urgh. And how is that relevant to romfail? Oh, and while I’m on the subject: would that insult have been hurled at a man? Nope.
@Magdalen If you write something online, you have to be aware that anyone and everyone can read it. Hence the importance of re-reading something before pressing the ‘send’ button. On Twitter, I find I have to remind myself of this at times as conversations move so fast and I tend to forget that everyone can read what I tweet, even if it’s in the course of a discussion with one particular person.
@Robin Why is it that people bitching about others bitching are often more vicious than those they are criticizing?
I’m not sure I agree with your suspicion that the romfail critics have an anti-DA agenda. Would people have reacted differently if someone else had tweeted negatively about Sarah McCarty’s book? Probably not. Obviously, Jane has numerous followers, and can reach a wider audience because of this.
I read Karen Ranney’s post. While I understand she’s upset, I really wish she’d named Jane and Dear Author directly. This is a pet peeve of mine. If you’re going to bitch about someone, at least name them specifically. It’s cowardly not to do so and it makes it difficult for the person criticized to defend themselves. BTW, Dear Author was one of the first places I saw erotic romance reviewed, so Ranney’s assertion is ridiculous.
@rana Thanks for those links! Much appreciated.
@heidenkind Consistency and grammar issues are a major deal for me as a reader. I don’t see anything wrong with pointing those out.
I must admit I found the whole thing very entertaining for a day or two, is that bad?
“If this were a bunch of guys who did a live reading session of the latest American Idol episode or a SF/F novel, would the reaction be the same? Eh, I doubt it.”
I think this is my main beef, (not with the dude but the ones who came after.. lol) like in my earlier post, is a lot of it seemed to boil down to the problematic “You Got Nothing Nice to say” that seems to pop up with regularly in romance land.
Am totally unclear as to why a romance book should be above from similar razing that movies/shows etc get generally in much bigger forums/medias. BTW Inglorious Bastards or whatever the film is, has been a trending topic for over a week on twitter, though it is the full run of pos – to outright snark.
Whether it is an agenda or not, DA bashing definitely had it’s role to play in some of the blogs I visited, some just seemed to be using romfail as an excuse to bash and others their main argument against it seemed to be because it was Jane. It was a bit squicky.
Clarification ed: Not all blogs and comments were like that, just that there was enough that I noticed a common theme.
@Edie No, I don’t think finding romfail entertaining is bad. That’s the whole point.
I don’t understand why romance novels are supposed to be treated differently to other genres. Some are good, some are bad. Ultimately, a book is a product and the reader is the consumer. Customer feedback is legitimate.
I lubs you Sarah.
I spent a ridiculous amount of words in recent days trying to say what you said in that one neat little paragraph.
PS. The badness was actually in relation to finding the fallout entertaining viewing. Which is bad. I have no guilt about romfail, pretty much the only ones that I read through fully were the books that I had brought.
@Sarah
Oh, I don’t think that everyone who dislikes #romfail is anti-DA or is using this as an excuse to DA bash. Not by any stretch. I could go through a much longer explanation of my suspicion, but that would involve a) making people undertake the mind-sucking exercise of reading the gazillion comments generated by those tag-teaming on #romfail and on Jane right now, and b) pointing out various examples of personalized and/or snarky reviews/snarky comments/name calling and insults, etc. of some of the supporters of Garton’s increasingly offensive engagement. And I just don’t think it’s worth the time and energy.
I did want to make a comment in response to rana’s, re. offensiveness, though. I think there’s a difference between someone being offensive and being offended by someone. I share the view that Garton (among others) is being highly offensive, but do you really think someone who says crap like that should have any effect on what you feel about yourself (the “you” there is a general you)? IMO some people have had valid and well-stated objections to #romfail, but some of the stuff that’s been spewed — while patently offensive — is just so ridiculous and totally unworthy of feeling offended over, IMO.
If someone else had done it, they would have gotten more shit for it.
Karen Ranney’s post was very her, no clue why she didn’t ‘name’ DA or Jane maybe cuz it is pretty clear and all over? But I agree with you, name names or don’t blog it. Good point. As for the rest it is easier to say omg they are out to get me.
What I don’t get is why not just say ‘we are doing romfail this way, we like it, suck it and go away’. There is a block feature. The ‘I hope she? they? don’t have kids’? It is words, words don’t hurt, he can’t really keep anyone from having kids. It blew up so much because the people doing the mocking and snarking, were shocked and cried when it was turned back on them. Yes it was mean, nasty and personal – they think romfail is mean, nasty and personal. Shake it off, this isn’t shocking.
Many authors feel that way about ANY review under a B. So…. this is surprising why?
@Robin @sybil
Having since waded through many (not all) of the romfail tweets and related posts, I think Robin has a point about *some* romfail critics having a problem with Dear Author. Many others seem to see it in the wider context of romance novels being above criticism and/or such criticism should not be voiced by fellow authors.